"The Brides the LAMB'S Wives are those that are being purified through the
visualization of the Perfect Bride. Now, isn't that Wonderful!'

"Visualization of the Perfect Bride

"The Reincarnation of MOTHER DIVINE"



Editor's Note: In 1946, interracial marriages were still banned in Pennsylvania. Therefore, FATHER and MOTHER DIVINE motored to Washington, DC, where interracial marriages were permitted, on April 29, 1946, to the home of Reverend Albert E. Shadd to be married by him at 11 a.m. in a double ring ceremony.

During the following interview, Rev. Shadd reveals that the Holy Ghost overshadowed him powerfully during the ceremony and caused him to depart slightly from the prescribed marriage ritual.

Later in the interview, FATHER DIVINE refers to a radio program, 'The Answer Man,' during which a listener questioned FATHER DIVINE'S Name. FATHER DIVINE replied to the host of the program, Bruce Chapman, in 1946 and gave His correct Name.

Still later in the interview, FATHER DIVINE alludes to state troopers in New Jersey stopping His car, not for any infraction of the law, but because the occupants crowded into the car were racially integrated. FATHER DIVINE wrote to then Governor Edge of New Jersey, protesting the prejudicial action of the troopers.



Office Talk and Interview Granted By FATHER DIVINE to Rev. Shadd and some of FATHER'S Immediate Staff, Subject:
"The Reincarnation of MOTHER DIVINE"

In FATHER'S Private Office of the Circle Mission Church, Home, and Training School of Pennsylvania,
764-772 South Broad Street, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Sunday and Monday August 4-5, 1946 A.D.F.D., Time: 6:00 AM




Circle Mission Church office.

FATHER and MOTHER DIVINE Circle Mission Church office<blockquote>



Before Rev. Shadd entered HIS office, FATHER DIVINE spoke of how Rev. Shadd had prepared himself for his work as follows:




They even said that the HOLY GHOST had not fallen since the Day of Pentecost they thought it had not. In nineteen hundred and six, the people all over the country from here and from other places of the east and south and southeast, went to California to get the HOLY GHOST. It is Wonderful! Wonderful! Doctor Shadd had been there and was in that number, he claims, and received the demonstration the Baptism.

Hence, in the Holiness Churches and other churches they could not hold him according to his statement and record, because he would not preach their doctrine. But yet, he was authorized by the Spirit, having studied the Hindu Philosophy, the Masters of the Far East had studied with them as being a Hindu himself, in part. It was just marvelous to see how he had searched through all of the different high doctrines of the different philosophies of men and was seeking ME but could not find ME in them. It had to be as it was. It was such a Wonderful, Wonderful experience!

At this point a secretary entered, saying that Reverend Shadd wanted to speak to FATHER, whereupon he was immediately ushered in. Greetings were exchanged. Then Reverend Shadd stated that he wished some of the other members of his party had been present to hear the Message FATHER had just given at the Holy Communion Table because he thought it was so wonderful. FATHER then answered, saying:




"Well, as I said, the SPIRIT brought it out volitionally, and no doubt, they will get it in The New Day anyway. The Message that was read tonight is explanatory in itself. This week's issue of The New Day is filled with it. There were many more Messages given last week and Office Talks and the like, relative to the same thing and on the same subject that did not get in this issue of The New Day. This week's issue of T he New Day, no doubt, should have what we say tonight and many more. It is Wonderful! It is Wonderful! Wonderful!"


A Deviation from Church Marital Ceremony

Reverend Shadd said that in the testimony he had given earlier in the evening, he had forgotten to mention the fact that during the performing of the marital ceremony the Spirit overshadowed him and caused him to deviate from the customary ritual.

FATHER: Sure, well it was true, because you see it was the Spirit.

Rev. Shadd: It took me a week or ten days to get over the shock. I even began to murmur to myself. Have YOU ever seen a character sketch of a person that continuously felt that they were imposed upon or think that they were not acceptable, or think like that? And I said, 'I am an alien even to the Church. Why should I be worthy? Nothing against my character, but I don't conform to the error that they taught.'

FATHER: Well, you see, all of those points I AM fulfilling it is marvelous legally and politically, that we might have a more perfect union and that all men are created equal, that they should have their unalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, though being alien to the Churches and may have been deemed to have been alien to the Country humanly speaking and so with her (referring to Mrs.. DIVINE.) Yet I have long since declared,

'I shall break that alien yoke of bondage,'

even politically, the political documents.

They shall have their unalienable rights to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Therefore, both Scripturally and inspirationally, and politically it is fulfilled. There is no question about it. And it had to be that way, just like Jesus, the First-born among many brethren, was born out of wedlock to prove His Mastery over the systems of men. While yet in and at this time, it was essential for ME to go through this experience to fulfill all Righteousness as I say, and to break that limited barrier of mortal concept concerning MYSELF, My Work and My Mission and prove to the world conclusively, I can fulfill the law and also the Scripture. It is Wonderful! Wonderful! Wonderful!


Rev. Shadd Qualified

Therefore, I broke that alien yoke of bondage as far as you were concerned, religiously and nationally, and also I had broken it before through the Supreme Court Judge as far as you were concerned. And then I came and verified it, and there is no question to even slightly question whether you are justified in that which you have done and whether you are protected or not in it. There is nothing to fear. There is nothing to fear!

As I have often said,

'If it was such a thing as a Body ceasing to function

as I said when I was in the hands of the lynch mobs so many times, I said:

I will carry out My Plan and Purpose to the Letter with or without My Body, and if My Body ceases to function, if it was possible, I shall still carry out My Plan and Purpose with or without My Body, because GOD is ALMIGHTY.'

And it is the same thought today. Some thoughts may come, or someone may try to say, 'Aren't YOU afraid someone will do this or do the other to YOU?' I AM not afraid of anything. No one can do anything to ME neither to those who are with ME wholeheartedly, because they are invisible yet visible. They are both invisible and visible.

I recall the time when years ago I first went south and even after the first time, the second or third time I had gone south, they would be after ME at times and I had been walking along, right along with other people at least men that were tall and they said they could not see ME, because they knew, they said, I was short and that I had been walking right along on the level with them invisibly walking on air as though I had been walking on the ground had been right level with the heads of the tall men walking together, and they knew I wasn't the One in that group, because they knew they said I was a little short Fellow. And so, GOD is your protection and you have nothing to fear.

'GOD is your refuge and your strength'


'GOD is the Source of all Supply and will satisfy every Good Desire.'

So, all one must need do is substantiate themselves upon such a foundation and relax the conscious mentality and still themselves wholeheartedly and GOD will take care of them.


The Scripture Is Being Fulfilled

Rev. Shadd: YOU know, FATHER, I rejoice in the way I can behold the fulfillment of every word and every letter almost, in the Scripture, is being fulfilled in these days. YOU know, I was thinking as YOU were speaking yesterday morning how Jesus had to cleanse Mary Magdalene; but now the BRIDE comes back unadulterated. Mary becomes the Perfect Picture, that the LAMB has a worthy BRIDE. YOU know, I thought to myself, that is wonderful!

FATHER: It is Wonderful! And as I explained, it is so marvelous because it is so plain and it is upper mostly in consciousness and consideration as,

'The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His Glory as that of the Only Begotten of the FATHER, full of Grace and of Truth.'

And now The Bride, the LAMB'S WIFE, the Two are One Flesh; and in that Flesh you behold the Glory as the reiteration or repetition of the selfsame Glory you saw in HIM, as it may be deemed.

Now vision it vividly, conscientiously and sincerely, The Good is reproduced and you can reproduce the same as you saw in HIM. So that is the mystery.

Then, it is not an individual affair, but it is universal. Hence, the Universal Bride will as being termed the Brides the LAMB'S Wife are those that are being purified through the visualization of the Perfect Bride. Now, isn't that Wonderful!

Rev. Shadd: And in a matter of time the entire Church will be Your Bride, and Your full and complete Bride. Then materialism will no longer exist and the Spirit Personified will then rule; and then the Glorified Life of GOD in His Glory and GOD in His Glorified Church will be beheld; and everyone will behold HIM. And no longer will we have these bodies as we have them. We will have those changed and glorified bodies that the Beauty of the Holiness of YOU have made us.


MOTHER Desired An Angel's Body

FATHER: It is true! I received a letter just yesterday, I think it was someone telling ME how MOTHER had told them in times past, years ago, that she wished I would give her an Angel's body to dwell in, and others have said it, and SHE has told ME and that thought I would try to rebuke, because I tried to get Her to know that She could stay here. Life Eternal is predestined to and for all who fail to deviate in any way whatsoever.

'If a man keep My Sayings, he shall never see death.'

There is no death for the ones that will go on to perfection. But of course, if you give up the Ghost for some cause, it may be better known to yourself that for some reason you may give it up and may cease to function; but Life is Eternal and your privilege to live is just as much assured as it was when I, in the person of Jesus in the Sonship Degree, said:

'If a man keep My Sayings, he shall never see death.'
'Whosoever liveth and believeth on ME shall never die.'

Although She MOTHER did tell ME many times that She wanted to see the younger ones with ME and She wanted an Angel's body and the like.

I recalled so many times, MOTHER used to think She looked so much older than I, in the which She did appear, according to the mortal version; and She at times was apparently ashamed to be with ME because people would think that She was My natural mother or something of that sort, lots of times; and I said, 'Well, that is all right. I will make My head bald in the which I did and I will look a little older so that you won't have to worry about that.'


What MOTHER Desired For FATHER

And I used to carry her everywhere I would go and there was a mind to the extent and there was no thought in ME of being ashamed of Her but She felt like She looked too old for ME and She would say, why is it that I would not take some of the Rosebuds with ME? And sometimes She would say that I should have some younger ones with ME that could read and play the piano and do things for ME like She was not gifted to do, and so on like that.

But yet, My thought was not that I desired to see the passing nor the discontinuance, and I never made an admission of it to anyone, not anyone, even of My immediate staff. I never admitted that She had deceased until the time and the season for this to happen, and then I only admitted it by the actuated words of expression. I did not admit it in reality, but by actions and by deeds and could have verified that it was authentic and legal and not any violation of the law or anything of that sort that this service to humanity could be performed. And so it was! But not until millions had been born into this virtue!

Just think of all of those who have been born of this new birth of freedom in Virtue, in Honesty, in Competence and in Truth! Just think of it! How they are willing to and will and did deny themselves of all human affection, all lust and all passion! Even the wicked ones. Men and women, young men and young women, willing to deny themselves of all of that for

Righteousness' sake. It was through that Virtue that was in the body called MOTHER, of which She was. It is Wonderful! Wonderful! Wonderful!

And this and they are the ones through which She gave this Spiritual birth as I explained to The Answer Man. That letter should be read over and over again and stamped in the memory of all mankind.

And then, She went some place and did not return again and some said She had passed, but I did not admit it because I knew She was with ME all of the time the spirits of just men and the Righteousness of Her as spoken of by the Scripture about the Bride that I had arrayed Her in pure raiments, white linen, which is the Righteousness of the Saints. You see the mystery! And She was clothed in the Righteousness of MOTHER and exemplified it and others can see it!


MOTHER Reincarnated

Rev. Shadd: To prove that, FATHER, I was present at the Mission in Washington and the followers were reading the paper, The New Day, in reference to the officers stopping Your car on the state line and this angel cried out 'Oh, you see, I knew MOTHER had not passed. She is reincarnated. She has been reincarnated.' Now, you see, she knew that MOTHER had not passed. Here SHE is now! SHE is reincarnated!

FATHER: Sure! It is Wonderful!

Rev. Shadd: So, you see, the same Spirit, the same Truth, rather, that YOU are Teaching, is even in the hearts of those who knew MOTHER DIVINE, and they realize that at last MOTHER, after a silence, has come back.

FATHER: It is true! It is marvelous! And so, when I wrote the Governor, you see, [Governor Edge of New Jersey] the thought was as is, that the stopping of our cars would tend to be a sense of intimidation on the part of some of the officers. Where the civilians could not have any grounds to say anything to ME I mean, the Klans men and others they were not brave enough to come directly to ME, although they did burn some crosses on the lawn over at Riverton on the Retired Teachers' Home, some of My followers' place, as I explained to the Governor in that Message or letter concerning the state officers.

It did seem to dovetail, you see, what they were doing; and they looked upon us as we travel, and they thought I was a man riding around with a whole lot of women, no doubt, and that was My reason for wanting them to know that MRS.. DIVINE was with ME, even if they thought it was MOTHER DIVINE, if they did not know that She had passed about three or four years ago; they would know that I AM talking about MRS.. DIVINE and it was not anything illegal about it or immoral about it, because SHE was right with ME, by MY side.


The Present Mrs. DIVINE

Well, those of the followers picked it up. They said, 'Mrs.. DIVINE' they said, 'FATHER said, MRS.. DIVINE was with HIM.' They said, 'Mrs.. DIVINE! Either FATHER must be married again or MOTHER must be reincarnated.' But I had not told them that She had passed; but it was very fitting to say to the authorities that MRS.. DIVINE, in My point of view, was riding through the state, and I had been intimidated on several occasions. I wanted the authorities to know and others to know that this is no representation of a group going around committing crimes and vices or anything of that sort.

I wanted them to know just how we stood, and I had MY license right with ME and could prove it, if it was necessary. But I knew that was their thoughts, and of course, there was no way for an ordinary civilian to come up and try to intimidate ME without putting himself on the spot, but the officers could do it and say, 'There are too many of you riding in one car.' If we did not pass a red light and did not speed, they could stop you for that.

I said I will write the Governor and reveal this to him and so I did, and by so doing I was revealing it to the world of which they all should know. But of course, I did not try to make it a public issue that MOTHER DIVINE had passed, because I do not believe in death. In GOD there is no death, but if She had ceased to be, if She had ceased to function and had gone as being termed 'passed,' why, it was perfectly legal and justifiable for ME to replace Her with a body of virtue and the qualities and the character of Her, you see. And so I did, but I did not say it was different when I spoke to the Governor. I was speaking to him in the letter as though it was MOTHER. I had never told him or anyone that MOTHER had seemingly passed.

At times some would say, 'Where is MOTHER?' They had heard that She had passed and I would say, 'She travels from one place to the other,' which She did because She would be right with ME then, as far as I AM concerned.

'The Spirit of the Consciousness of the Presence of GOD brings the Spirit of the Presence of the Just Ones with ME here and whensoever and wheresoever I go, and I can never be bereaved.'

And so that is the reason I happened to write the Governor, and through it this thought was revealed and it still remains that through prejudice, they are not only with the Klans, but they do not want to see this go on, and therefore, the ceremony was legally performed and if they take ME as a natural man, then from their point of view, I have My legal rights, the same as anyone else.

With a few more brief remarks, this beautiful and enlightening Office Talk and Interview concluded.








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True Americanism, True Brotherhood, True Christianity, True Judaism and All True Religions are synonymous and truly Our GOD is One GOD. Amen

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